Rob Fahrni is right: while it could’ve been worse, this is still a mistake. One of many. Way too many. It stuns me that so many people are still kowtowing to this insult of an administration.
I hope that when my kids are older, they look back at this period in our history as an aberration rather than as the time “when it all started.”
I hope you are right Nick. I am very afraid of what is happening to us because of the Bush Regime.
You care more about our enemies than you do your own country. Democrats see this administration/republicans as the enemy. This administration sees the real enemy … terrorists, who by the way would love to kill you and your family.
Do our soldiers get a Bible? A blanket, 3 squares a day?
What does the enemy afford us when captured? A beheading and then thrown to the street.
Whatever it takes is what I believe. This is war people.
Man, get a fucking clue. These people are terrorists! THEY. WANT. TO. KILL. US. What is so fucking hard to understand about that? They have no right under our constitution or the geneva conventions. You are so blinded and blurred by your hatred for the president that you and your liberal kind are ruining any chance to protect this nation and our allies in defeating this enemy, by continuing to set up roadblocks for any legislation that the president puts together to protect our soverignty(sp).
War with who?
This CNN article by Oliver Stone is great IMO and hits the issue right on:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/09/29/film.oliverstone.ap/index.html
If the terrorists want to come over here and kill us and our families why haven’t they done it? It’s not that hard to get across the border (millions of Mexicans seem to have figured it out) – you can buy guns everywhere – where are they?
Last time I looked at the headlines – it was Americans shooting Americans and there were no signs of these ‘terrorists’…
Meanwhile we sign away our rights and freedoms so our government can ‘protect’ us… from who?
Ah, it’s nice to see so many false assumptions about me simply because I care about silly little things such as Habeas Corpus.
You know, if this bill only affected our enemies, I wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about it. I understand the very real threat we’re facing, and have no sympathy or tolerance for those who wish us harm. But let’s get real: this won’t just affect the bad guys, any more than giving our government permission to tap our phones will only affect people with something to hide.
BTW, the thing that’s “ruining our chances to protect this nation” is the misguided war in Iraq, not people like me who aren’t willing to compromise our civil rights. It’s my belief that we’re going to face much more serious threats over the next few decades, and the public opinion– both in our country and in the world at large – about how we handled Iraq is going to make it harder to do what must be done.
So is this a political blog? Happens that I am a good FeedDemon customer and an huge supporter of President Bush and the Iraq War. I do love my children so I want the enemy (and have no doubt, there is an enemy that’s all too real out there) killed over there before me and mine are killed over here.
Oh, and I also don’t like buying from folks that I know don’t support the war. (Dropped cable TV a couple years ago because I was sick of seeing the Abu Ghraib photos over and over and over again-it was ridiculous.) I might need to make the same evaluation where FeedDemon is concerned.
Why is it that you guys care about terrorist rights after people who were slaughtered on 9/11? Pathetic!
You can call me a liberal or what you will… I don’t defend terrorists… I defend the consititution and get upset when Congress and our President tosses it aside in the name of the “War on Terror.” What exactly is the War on Terror? I can’t think of a more vague, ambiguous, and utterly devoid of meaning term.
Nick,
Perhaps you should just change the header on this blog to “TopStyle / FeedDemon / Liberal Laments.”
I think you need to take a step back and look at this from a different point of view. The reason for a lack of habeus corpus is more due to a lack of jurisdiction. Since the “offense” took place in another country, why would a US court have jurisdiction over the prisoners? I think there is little doubt as to why the prisoners are there, so what possible habeus corpus claim could there be? And if we were to release them due to a writ of habeus corpus, where do we release them to? Back to the battlefield so they can take more potshots at our soldiers?
As far as why they haven’t come over here to kill us Americans? I think that it is because it is pretty expensive to get over to America and since there are plenty of Americans in Iraq/Afghanistan (and in the mind of a Jihadist more culpable anyway) it just makes more sense to fight their battles there. Just like it was all that time prior to 9/11 when they were blowing up Embassies and ships.
However, the big catastrophic terror attacks are surely being planned within our contries. Look at 7/7, Richard Reid, 3/11 etc…
Don’t let the rhetoric fool you. Elections are coming up and the FUD is out in force.
>>War with who?
Refer to:
Democrats see this administration/republicans as the enemy.
Again, liberals don’t get it. Muslim extremists, that’s the fuck who!
The threat will be their regardless so why give up freedoms you should be proud of? The biggest threat to America is its current administration, I am not saying another administration would have been better however I think the people of America should fight more to keep their rights. The land of the free is becoming becoming the land that was free. Signing away freedoms of a false sense of security is both pointless and stupid. Your ancestors fought so hard for them and you sign them away because you are too blind to see that the threat is tiny and not something you should worry about. In 20 or so years time, when you have no freedoms left, you will look back and think “why did we do that?” however getting freedoms back is much, much harder than signing them away. Has America learned nothing from superpowers of the past? The terrorist threat to America is no greater now than it was 20 years ago, the only difference is that it is now used against you to scare you into giving the people at the top more and more powers.
As much as I hate to feed trolls (joshua, Jon-Paul LeClair, etc) please explain what *possible* barriers does *revoking the Constitution* break down? And if you do not think suspension of Habeus Corpus is NOT revoking the Constitution, then I suspect none of you have actually read the Constitution and are only spouting back what you’ve been told to.
…I can’t think of a more vague, ambiguous, and utterly devoid of meaning term…
How about “War on Drugs”
Jim P
I will admit that I, unfortenately, DID vote for Bush the last two elections and am now sorry I did.
I think what none of the Bush defenders here realizes is that this bill gives the President the power to declare *anyone* – note that, *anyone* – not just “terrorists”, but you, me, your brother, sister, anyone the administration doesn’t like – as an illegal combatant and strip us of our right to Habeus Corpus – THAT is what the big deal is.
“Rational,” I get your point about the header. I’ve changed (removed) it.
Critter42: That is absolute and complete FUD.
First, I suggest you go read the bill (not the articles about the bill).
Second, lets say for argument’s sake, that this bill did suspend Habeus Corpus for US citizens. Wouldn’t the Supreme Court step in declare it unconstitutional?
Jeremy, I believe our courts will overturn the bill.
Nick: Agreed, they already voted 5-3 in June about Congress tying to strip Habeus Corpus from detainees.
To be honest, I’d have rather the Habeus Corpus provisions were put into the bill, because I think it is pretty good.
I do however, still say that there are jurisdictional issues on this since the offenses are military in nature.
For example: What law do you charge them with breaking? Murder, attempted murder? Problem with that is they weren’t in the US at the time, so why would we apply US laws to them.
Jim, IMO our enemies should be religious extremists of all kinds, not just the Muslim ones. I say we bomb Pat Robertson next!
Jeremy, I *DID* read the bill. Please look at item ii under the definition of “Unlawful Enemy Combatant”:
“(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.”
Read that a couple of times if necessary, I’ll wait.
What this bill does, essentially, is create a legal Star Chamber with no oversight by the Judicial branch.
In the UK vast numbers have looked upon Bush as a joke president in the same way we looked at Ronald Reagan. In Reagan’s case he lead an administration that oversaw the relatively non-violent collapse of communist totaliarianism in Europe so maybe we didn’t get it. I think in Bush’s case we do get it and the degree to which Tony Blair has gone along every step of the way has caused untold harm to his reputation and our security.
critter42:
It’s in the first line of the section pertaining to who falls under the law. Stop being so alarmist about it.
Sec. 948c. Persons subject to military commissions
Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by military commission under this chapter.
Strongly disagree with you Nick. The West is slipping away into an abyss we may never get out of simply because many folks just want to surrender to evil and let the terrorist subvert everything moral and decent.
critter42: I actually was trying to find the reference you sited and couldn’t find it in the bill passed by the House and sent to the Senate… Googling I found it in a reference to an earlier draft of the bill…
Maybe you’ve read an earlier draft of the bill? Go ahead and read the one that was passed… Go ahead I’ll wait ;)
For those wanting to actually read it here’s the Library of Congress link:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.+6054:
Keep on protecting the “rights” for the terrorists. It’s so comforting to see so many appeasers on here. Once again, do anything to hurt the president and this administration. And if, and thats a big if, the democrats do win both houses. Be prepared for shit to really hit the fan, because democrats/liberals (not Lieberman) are weak on defense.
I’m not a troll by the way (critter42 – come on, what’s your real name?!)…I’ve been long time subscriber to Nick’s blog and long time TopStyle user. I just choose to comment when I want.
Nick, I’m sorry for blasting away here and I’m sure you didn’t intend for this to cause a comment war. I respect your position – I don’t agree with it – but I respect it.
Howard, I agree that democrats are weak on defense (they’re just weak in general, if you ask me). It’s possible to despise “both” political parties, y’know.
Jon-Paul, no need to apologize, you’ve stated your opinion fairly. I likewise don’t agree with your opinion, but I respect you for having one :)
jeez, its easy to see from the reactions here why america is so comfortable creating hardened criminals out of pot smoking teenagers and the like. We’re doing the same things overseas but the folks have rpg’s and suicide belts.
For the last 50 years, the military industrial complex has socio-engineered this country in the interests of the super rich.
We dont have an inherent right to fuck up the rest of the world.
The Republican party is working hard to fight terrorists, but someone has to work just as hard to make sure that we don’t lose our freedoms. What’s the point of fighting to keep those freedoms if we no longer have them?
People against this bill aren’t looking to defend the rights of terrorists. We’re looking to defend the rights of innocent United States citizens who might find themselves on the wrong side of this law. It could happen by mistake, or if some power-monger finds his or her way into the chair of the president, laws like this one could be abused. It’s been proven throughout history that people in power will eventually abuse it if they can, and that’s why we have the Constitution in the first place.
Jeremy, actually you were reading the earlier version – HR 6166 is the version that passed, not HR 6054
Jon, my real name could be found out (like anybody’s could given enough time and resources), but I use my handle for personal reasons. What counts for me is that Nick knows my real name and knows who I am (even though we haven’t yet had the chance to meet in person).
Very well said, Josh – thank you.
Read history. Habeus Corpus for wartime detainees is the norm. There’s nothing new here.
And our laws don’t really matter to the terrorists. They don’t respect any form of international law and will just as soon behead any of us as have a cup of coffee.
We need to protect ourselves from today’s terrorists, not some imagined US bogeyman.
The real problem here is not the specific laws and/or procedures that the administration decides they can ignore. It’s that they are methodically undermining the check and balance system that has protected this country’s citizens from government oppression for 200 years.
The Bush administration feels they “know what’s best” for us and they should be the creator of laws, the interpreter of the laws and the arbiter of all questions. (Oh and if you dare to question them, you must be a terrorist supporter.)
Countries that operate this way are called dictatorships, not democracies.
It seems to me that the terrorists are treated better than those that were killed by terrorists.
I for one am sick and tired of people taking an issue and making it political. Doesn’t matter if you are a democrat or a republican.. we are at war. Something needed to be done about the people that would love to kill any American.
The terrorists don’t care that you hate the current administration. The terrorists don’t care if the Democrats are the majority either. They want us dead.
I hope that when my kids are older they take responsibility for their own actions and never play the blame game. I hope that my children will see things for what they are and will be able to tell the difference between fact and spin tactics.
We are at war. Figure it out.
Glad to see that a bunch of people keep their mind clear in USA. Good luck!
critter42: I stand corrected. However, this text is still in the bill:
948c. Persons subject to military commissions
Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by military commission under this chapter.
So you are still overreaching it by quite a bit to claim that _any_ citizen can be detained by this bill.
Ever since history all wars where about ressources. First it was hunting for meat, crop, than came wood, iron, coal, oil etc.. Every tribe had its one god. This is how religions startet in the first place. Nothing has changed since than. The war on ressources is still going on under the “protection” of the religions. The thing we (the humankind) have to do first is: how to distribute the ressources of the world in a fairly, justly, ethical manner.
The next thing is to abolish all religions. To get rid of this infantilism to think that there will be an afterlife, or that there is a benign “father” in heaven. There is no world to come. We have ONLY THIS WORLD. And a very fragile one indeed.
The USA is a huge ressources-sucker, didn’t sign to the Kyoto protocol, has no interest in world environment and so on ….
If the richest country of the world (the USA) would change theire attitudes in these regards; all the world would change.
It never ceases to amaze me how dangerous supporters of this regime are! What will it take for you kool-aid drinking sheeple to let go of your fantasy that these are good law abiding people?! This is the most crooked and corrupt regime that this country has ever experienced. If we make it through the next 2 years it will be a miracle!!
And Nick, I’ll keep buying software from you. Hell I’d buy a bridge in Brooklyn from you if you got one to sell! Thanks for your comments!
All of you have what you deserve :).
A pathetic president for a pathetic country (and Nick, I’m sorry, I hate to generalize, but this is how the rest of the world see you, America, ‘the land of the dreams and the eternal freedom’ …. yeah, for sure).
Damn, even your history is pathetic. How many?, 200 years of REAL history about how Europe’s scum reached at your land?. Pffft.
Saturday night, we watched Good Night, and Good Luck again.
It was chilling the first time, recognizing the similarities between the 50s atmosphere and now.
What really got to us this time was the clip of Republican president Dwight Eisenhower talking about the importance of Habeus Corpus towards the end of the movie.
Perhaps Congress should be required to read, watch and remember their own history.
I completely agree. Now I fully understand how Hitler came to power in 1930s Germany. He had his Reichstag fire, Bush had a fixed election quickly followed by 9/11. Since then almost no one except bloggers have challenged this administration. It will be known as the “Dark Era” in American history, if for no other reason that we’ve lost an unprecedented among of power, prestige, and moral authority over the past six years. Truly sad.
a bit of historical context is always helpful. as i’m sure many of you know, abraham lincoln is widely revered as one of our nations’s greatest presidents and as i’m sure you also know, he suspended habeas corpus during the civil way.
i can certainly understand strongly disagreeing with Bush’s policies on fighting terrorism but the one thing that does puzzle me is the belief that many of his enemies have that his real object is the destruction of american freedoms. making this argument is just absurd, in my opinion. i guess i can’t understand why someone can’t hate bush and his policies but yet believe in his goodwill? I mean, can’t an opponent just be wrong, and not also evil?
Hi,
Bush has made a few mistakes Iraq War, Global Warming denial, leaving the job undone in Afghanistan and not getting Bin Laden when he had the chance. In his favour he he did express how nuts he thinks the Christian right were for voting for him, so he’s not totally stupid.
He just got influenced by the wrong people, the two incompetents, Cheney and Rumsfeld. A lesson in how not to run a military campaign.
I feel very sorry for the American soldiers and Iraqi’s that are maimed and killed every day.
And fot what, Alqaeda is stronger than ever.
America is a great country, it’s just got the wrong administration in power. It’ll change for the better, Americans aren’t stupid, are they?
Sounds like a lot of frustration with our current administration. Let’s just hope that the next purveyors of public office (1)Initiate a plan to recover from Iraq (Muslim extremists will hate the U.S. for an eternity…no matter what happens in Iraq). (2)Turn a 7 trillion dollar defecit into a 7 trillion dollar surplus. (3)Restore confidence in leadership to the American people.